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| Author | Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 42 post(s) |
 Alex Harumichi    |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:12:00 -
[1] Need time to digest this, but on first read I don't like it much. Sure, I can understand the need to limit drone number a bit, but here you're giving everyone max 5 drone. Where's the gallente drone race speciality anymore, a bit more thermal damage? Wohoo...  Drones are the only way for gallente ships to get something else except th/kin damage, now you're removing that. At least make the damage bonus apply to all drone types, having it thermal-only sucks. It seems like a Gallente nerf to me, now everyone else will be pretty much on the same like with regards to drones. It's like every ship in the game except the Caldari suddenly got 4 extra missile launcher slots, removing their "missile user" speciality. Not good. Meh. |
 Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:12:00 -
[2] Need time to digest this, but on first read I don't like it much. Sure, I can understand the need to limit drone number a bit, but here you're giving everyone max 5 drone. Where's the gallente drone race speciality anymore, a bit more thermal damage? Wohoo... Drones are the only way for gallente ships to get something else except th/kin damage, now you're removing that. At least make the damage bonus apply to all drone types, having it thermal-only sucks. It seems like a Gallente nerf to me, now everyone else will be pretty much on the same like with regards to drones. It's like every ship in the game except the Caldari suddenly got 4 extra missile launcher slots, removing their "missile user" speciality. Not good. Meh. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:22:00 -
[3] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2005 15:27:12
Agree. There are lots of good ideas behind this proposal, and I can see the good points of reducing number of drones from the server load viewpoint -- but *please* reconsider the thermal-only bonus thing. At the moment, the drone carriers (Dom and Ishtar) have a special role but need tons of high-rank skills to pull it off. After this, their speciality would be reduced to "a bit more damage with the same weapon everyone else can use, too, in the same amounts". This really sucks for us pilots who have invested a lot of time into training drone ships. My rank 5 Drone Interfacing V is just a bit more damage now? Big whoop. This is precisely like giving all the other battleships (other than Raven) an extra 6 launcher slots. Caldari pilots who complained could be told "well, your Raven still does the most damage with missiles, you're still the missile race". I imagine that would result in quite a few ****ed-off Caldari. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:22:00 -
[4] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2005 15:27:12
Agree. There are lots of good ideas behind this proposal, and I can see the good points of reducing number of drones from the server load viewpoint -- but *please* reconsider the thermal-only bonus thing. At the moment, the drone carriers (Dom and Ishtar) have a special role but need tons of high-rank skills to pull it off. After this, their speciality would be reduced to "a bit more damage with the same weapon everyone else can use, too, in the same amounts". This really sucks for us pilots who have invested a lot of time into training drone ships. My rank 5 Drone Interfacing V is just a bit more damage now? Big whoop. This is precisely like giving all the other battleships (other than Raven) an extra 6 launcher slots. Caldari pilots who complained could be told "well, your Raven still does the most damage with missiles, you're still the missile race". I imagine that would result in quite a few ****ed-off Caldari. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:45:00 -
[5] Some points: - Comparison with Caldari and kinetic missiles isn't quite that straightforward. Even the drone carrier ships are very limited to the number of drones they can carry, especially after this change with drone bays cut in half. Effect: you *cannot* switch damage types even if you wanted to, since you simply don't have the drone space to hold all the extra drones. Last I checked, Caldari missile boats could quite enough missiles of each type, and can easily switch to what suits the situation. - I hope drone speeds are being lookewd at. If I'm in a Dom and only have 5 in the air (as does everyone else) and they are pretty much my only weapon, I really hope they can at least get to target on time. Also, please test with light drones and interceptors & fast frigates -- last I checked, light drones weren't able to hit at all, making them useless. In addition, their damage is crappy but that's secondary since they aren't managing to catch their primary target type. Maybe on paper they do, but feel free to launch some lights vs. an inty orbiting at 10-15km. Suggestion: - increase drone speeds a bit - change gallente ship bonus form thermal damage bonus to somethine less limiting, ideally something that would keep the Gallente "drone user" identity |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 15:45:00 -
[6] Some points: - Comparison with Caldari and kinetic missiles isn't quite that straightforward. Even the drone carrier ships are very limited to the number of drones they can carry, especially after this change with drone bays cut in half. Effect: you *cannot* switch damage types even if you wanted to, since you simply don't have the drone space to hold all the extra drones. Last I checked, Caldari missile boats could quite enough missiles of each type, and can easily switch to what suits the situation. - I hope drone speeds are being lookewd at. If I'm in a Dom and only have 5 in the air (as does everyone else) and they are pretty much my only weapon, I really hope they can at least get to target on time. Also, please test with light drones and interceptors & fast frigates -- last I checked, light drones weren't able to hit at all, making them useless. In addition, their damage is crappy but that's secondary since they aren't managing to catch their primary target type. Maybe on paper they do, but feel free to launch some lights vs. an inty orbiting at 10-15km. Suggestion: - increase drone speeds a bit - change gallente ship bonus form thermal damage bonus to somethine less limiting, ideally something that would keep the Gallente "drone user" identity |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:10:00 -
[7] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2005 17:15:44 Tux, a suggestion: - change the Dom and Ishtar +10% thermal bonus to +5% per level to all damage types. - keep their (and the Ishkur's) drone bay sizes as is. Yes, I'm actually asking for a *reduction* in max DPS I can do with Dom and Ishtar, in exchange for versatility. And you know what? I suspect most Dom and Ishtar pilots would agree with me. (if not, I expect them to flame me soonest :). This would let Gallente drone users actually switch damage types (enough drone space to keep various drone types available), and would let Gallente get the best effect from drones. Exactly comparable to Caldari getting the best and most versatile missile output from Raven. How about it? |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:21:00 -
[8]
Exactly. Now that everyone and their dog can field 5 heavy drones, Dom becomes a waste of hangar space. It has crappy grid and crappy everything else, the whole point of the ship was lots of drones. If now it only has a bit more damage with a certain type of drone, it becomes useless -- with other battleships you get almost the same drone output *and* also all the other good stuff (good grid, weaponry, bonuses). I'll repeat: 1) change the Dom (and Ishtar) bonus to +5% per level to all drone damage types 2) keep their current drone bay sizes, so they can switch drones and damage types according to situation That would let them keep their "drone ship" role. The current proposal kills it. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:21:00 -
[9]
Exactly. Now that everyone and their dog can field 5 heavy drones, Dom becomes a waste of hangar space. It has crappy grid and crappy everything else, the whole point of the ship was lots of drones. If now it only has a bit more damage with a certain type of drone, it becomes useless -- with other battleships you get almost the same drone output *and* also all the other good stuff (good grid, weaponry, bonuses). I'll repeat: 1) change the Dom (and Ishtar) bonus to +5% per level to all drone damage types 2) keep their current drone bay sizes, so they can switch drones and damage types according to situation That would let them keep their "drone ship" role. The current proposal kills it. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:24:00 -
[10]
If I can fit enough drones on my Dom to switch to any of the 4 damage types at will (as you can with Raven and cruises, for example), I'll sort of agree with you. As is, I don't. If you could only fit one salvo of missiles in a Raven cargo bay, would you take people's claims of "hey, you can switch damage types!" seriously? Thought not. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 17:24:00 -
[11]
If I can fit enough drones on my Dom to switch to any of the 4 damage types at will (as you can with Raven and cruises, for example), I'll sort of agree with you. As is, I don't. If you could only fit one salvo of missiles in a Raven cargo bay, would you take people's claims of "hey, you can switch damage types!" seriously? Thought not. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:14:00 -
[12] Well, I'd say pick one: door #1: give Raven bonuses only to kinetic missiles door #2: give Dom bonus (+5%) to all drone damage types, instead of the +10% per level thermal Given that a Raven can switch damage type *much* faster than a Dom can recall drones to bay and launch new set, the above is a given if we want game balance. I'd go for: - Dom, Ishtar & Vexor: +5% per level all drone damage - Raven, Cerberus and Caracal: +5% per level all missile damage Seems fair to me. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:14:00 -
[13] Well, I'd say pick one: door #1: give Raven bonuses only to kinetic missiles door #2: give Dom bonus (+5%) to all drone damage types, instead of the +10% per level thermal Given that a Raven can switch damage type *much* faster than a Dom can recall drones to bay and launch new set, the above is a given if we want game balance. I'd go for: - Dom, Ishtar & Vexor: +5% per level all drone damage - Raven, Cerberus and Caracal: +5% per level all missile damage Seems fair to me. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:29:00 -
[14]
Oh, so tier2 battleships get to have general +5% bonuses while tier 1 battleships don't? I wasn't aware of that. Riddle me this. Why would I fly a Dom after this, opposed to some other bs that can field the same number of drones *and* do lots of other things besides. Ever taken a look at a Dom stats? They suck (lowest grid in game, etc). The reason for that is drones -- but now that other battleships are pretty close to it in the drone department, why not fly some other bs that can also field 5 drones *and* have proper grid and bonuses too? Sucks for us Dominix pilots, I guess. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:29:00 -
[15]
Oh, so tier2 battleships get to have general +5% bonuses while tier 1 battleships don't? I wasn't aware of that. Riddle me this. Why would I fly a Dom after this, opposed to some other bs that can field the same number of drones *and* do lots of other things besides. Ever taken a look at a Dom stats? They suck (lowest grid in game, etc). The reason for that is drones -- but now that other battleships are pretty close to it in the drone department, why not fly some other bs that can also field 5 drones *and* have proper grid and bonuses too? Sucks for us Dominix pilots, I guess. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:52:00 -
[16]
This also seems fine to me. Leaving the Gallente drone carriers as the only ships in the game being able to field 10 drones (with max skills, not common) would retain some "drone specialist" flavor that is otherwise being lost here. I ask again: is the Raven general +5% missile bonus being changed to (+10%?) kinetic only, if the Dom is given only a "racial" bonus? Battleship bonuses should be in the same ballpark, at least. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 21:52:00 -
[17]
This also seems fine to me. Leaving the Gallente drone carriers as the only ships in the game being able to field 10 drones (with max skills, not common) would retain some "drone specialist" flavor that is otherwise being lost here. I ask again: is the Raven general +5% missile bonus being changed to (+10%?) kinetic only, if the Dom is given only a "racial" bonus? Battleship bonuses should be in the same ballpark, at least. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:15:00 -
[18]
No. But since now every bs will be able to use drones much closer to the effect of a Dom (and do other stuff besides), I have to ask... where are the launcher slots on my Dom? I'll settle for 4 launcher hardpoints for now, I'm ok with Raven being best at missiles. Point I'm trying to make: this change takes away the one thing the Dom had going for it (and which excused its otherwise crappy stats) and gives nothing equivalent in return. If other battleships are made more equal in the drone department, where are my missile launchers? Where's my Dom extra grid? Where's my pony? |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:35:00 -
[19]
I see your point, but I still don't think it's balanced. Change the bonus to +5% to all drone damage and I'd agree a lot more. It's funny, I'm arguing for *less* DPS for drone users, as a hardcore drone user. DPS fanatics like Nafri are probably having a choking fit right now.  I like the versatility of drones. Please let us retain at least a part of that. Give us a +5% damage bonus instead of the stupid racial +10% bonus, and keep the drone bay a bit larger than the half way point. That would let drone specialists still have reason to fly the Dom and Ishtar while keeping game balance (and server lag reduction). |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:35:00 -
[20]
I see your point, but I still don't think it's balanced. Change the bonus to +5% to all drone damage and I'd agree a lot more. It's funny, I'm arguing for *less* DPS for drone users, as a hardcore drone user. DPS fanatics like Nafri are probably having a choking fit right now. I like the versatility of drones. Please let us retain at least a part of that. Give us a +5% damage bonus instead of the stupid racial +10% bonus, and keep the drone bay a bit larger than the half way point. That would let drone specialists still have reason to fly the Dom and Ishtar while keeping game balance (and server lag reduction). |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:53:00 -
[21]Hello, i'm Mr Powergrid, and i say theres no way you're getting a working setup involving large ion blasters on Mr dominix. Having had many discussions with Mr. Powergrid in the past, regarding the Dom, I agree. The Dom has the lowest powergrid in the game (bs-wise) and is expected to armor tank (= takes lots of grid). A Dom has the grid of a toaster oven, fitting it with grid-hungry stuff is a nightmare. The drones used to make up for that. Used to. Now it's a joke. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 22:53:00 -
[22]Hello, i'm Mr Powergrid, and i say theres no way you're getting a working setup involving large ion blasters on Mr dominix. Having had many discussions with Mr. Powergrid in the past, regarding the Dom, I agree. The Dom has the lowest powergrid in the game (bs-wise) and is expected to armor tank (= takes lots of grid). A Dom has the grid of a toaster oven, fitting it with grid-hungry stuff is a nightmare. The drones used to make up for that. Used to. Now it's a joke. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:05:00 -
[23]
Right. And I suppose you just sit still and wait for enemy to walk into blaster range and sit there? We were discussing viable setups here. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:05:00 -
[24]
Right. And I suppose you just sit still and wait for enemy to walk into blaster range and sit there? We were discussing viable setups here. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:23:00 -
[25] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2005 23:24:56
Yeah, the horror of having people who look beyond theoretical values spewed forth by QuickFit  But seriously, you're right, ions seem doable with that sort of fitting. I'm sceptical of the practical use, but I'll admit it's possible, at least in theory. You'd best hope your target isn't wielding a thermal tank, of course, otherwise your dps will fall through the floor... |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:23:00 -
[26] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 31/10/2005 23:24:56
Yeah, the horror of having people who look beyond theoretical values spewed forth by QuickFit But seriously, you're right, ions seem doable with that sort of fitting. I'm sceptical of the practical use, but I'll admit it's possible, at least in theory. You'd best hope your target isn't wielding a thermal tank, of course, otherwise your dps will fall through the floor... |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:31:00 -
[27]
Yeah, I've heard good things about this sort of Dom setups (and edit: your setup did have an mwd, it's getting late here and I missed that, sorry.). Dunno. Mostly I'm ****ed off about drones losing versatility and gaining a boring racial bonus. My one-month training of Drone Interfacing V seems close to a waste of time now, and the Dom doesn't look all that attractive to me after the changes. Maybe some new setups will be discovered, maybe not, but I don't like the fact that the Gallente "drone race" speciality is very much being diluted here. After this change, why exactly are we the "drone race"? Because of a bit more thermal damage and a few more drones on two ships? Sigh. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.10.31 23:31:00 -
[28]
Yeah, I've heard good things about this sort of Dom setups (and edit: your setup did have an mwd, it's getting late here and I missed that, sorry.). Dunno. Mostly I'm ****ed off about drones losing versatility and gaining a boring racial bonus. My one-month training of Drone Interfacing V seems close to a waste of time now, and the Dom doesn't look all that attractive to me after the changes. Maybe some new setups will be discovered, maybe not, but I don't like the fact that the Gallente "drone race" speciality is very much being diluted here. After this change, why exactly are we the "drone race"? Because of a bit more thermal damage and a few more drones on two ships? Sigh. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:02:00 -
[29] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 10:07:50 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 10:06:21
Gallente boost? What the xxxx are you smoking? This is the biggest nerf to Gallente for a long, long time. Since you seem to be unclear as to why, I'll explain. It has to do with relative ship strengths with a ship class. Before, we had the following max drone capability for battleships: Dom: 15 Mega: 10 Raven: 6 Scorp: 6 Tempest: 6 Typhoon: 10 Apoc: 6 Geddon: 10 So the Dom had 1.5 times the drone firepower of the next best drone battleship. To pay for that, the Dom has tiny grid and meager stats, drones are what it revolves around. So now we'll have this: Dom: 5 (effective 7.5 for thermal drones) Mega: 5 Raven: 3 Scorp: 3 Tempest: 3 Typhoon: 5 Apoc: 3 Geddon: 5 So the Dom now has the same drone firepower as the ships it used to have 1.5x against before (or the old 1.5x, but only if it uses thermal drones, a very iffy proposition in pvp -- thermal drones are *slow* and it's a very prodictable damage type). So overall, the relative firepower of the Dom has been significantly reduced (or the drone firepower of the other battleships has been boosted, however you want to look at it). It's pure loss, from the Gallente side of things. Since the battleships were pretty balanced before this, this leaved the Dom badly lacking since it can no longer survive with drones alone. It needs to be redesigned, if this goes through. The same applies to the other Gallente drone boats. The Ishtar goes from being one of the best HACs to one of the worst, and the cruisers fare just as well. It's all about *relative* ship strengths. If the Ares was the only interceptor in the game, it would be an awesome ship. When you compare it to the other interceptors, however, it sucks. That's how the game works, and how things are balanced. It's like all other battleships except the Raven suddenly getting 3-4 extra launcher slots (or the Raven losing a few). I don't think many Caldari pilots would be happy with that -- nor would they be happy with the Raven suddenly only getting bonuses for kinetic missiles. Drones are the missiles of the Gallente. - The silly thermal-only bonus needs to be redefined into something more versatile - The drone ship drone bays need to stay large, to at least allow for versatility in drone choice. - The Dom, Vexor, Arbitrator and Ishtar (at least) need some love to make up for the loss in (comparative) firepower. A bit more grid and cap would seem fair. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:02:00 -
[30] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 10:14:41 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 10:11:05
Gallente boost? What the xxxx are you smoking? This is the biggest nerf to Gallente for a long, long time. Since you seem to be unclear as to why, I'll explain. It has to do with relative ship strengths with a ship class. Before, we had the following max drone capability for battleships: Dom: 15 Mega: 10 Raven: 6 Scorp: 6 Tempest: 6 Typhoon: 10 Apoc: 6 Geddon: 10 So the Dom had 1.5 times the drone firepower of the next best drone battleship. To pay for that, the Dom has tiny grid and meager stats, drones are what it revolves around. So now we'll have this: Dom: 5 (effective 7.5 for thermal drones) Mega: 5 Raven: 3 Scorp: 3 Tempest: 3 Typhoon: 5 Apoc: 3 Geddon: 5 So the Dom now has the same drone firepower as the ships it used to have 1.5x against before -- or the old 1.5x, but only if it uses thermal drones, a very iffy proposition in pvp; thermal drones are *slow* and it's a very prodictable damage type. I rarely use thermals myself in pvp, a mix of explosive, em (or whatever, according to situation) is *much* more effective. So overall, the relative firepower of the Dom (in pvp) has been significantly reduced (or the drone firepower of the other battleships has been boosted, however you want to look at it). It's pure loss, from the Gallente side of things. Since the battleships were pretty balanced before this, this leaved the Dom badly lacking since it can no longer survive with drones alone. It needs to be redesigned, if this goes through. The same applies to the other Gallente drone boats. The Ishtar goes from being one of the best HACs to one of the worst, and the cruisers fare just as well. It's all about *relative* ship strengths. If the Ares was the only interceptor in the game, it would be an awesome ship. When you compare it to the other interceptors, however, it sucks. That's how the game works, and how things are balanced. It's like all other battleships except the Raven suddenly getting 3-4 extra launcher slots (or the Raven losing a few). I don't think many Caldari pilots would be happy with that -- nor would they be happy with the Raven suddenly only getting bonuses for kinetic missiles. Drones are the missiles of the Gallente. - The silly thermal-only bonus needs to be redefined into something more versatile. +10% to all combat drone damage would be optimal, that would keep the old firepower balance on the drone ships and let them choose damage type (to some extent, at least). - The drone ship drone bays need to stay large, to at least allow for versatility in drone choice. - Unless the +10% thermal damage is switched to +10% all drone damage, the drone ships need some boosts to make up for the lost firepower. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:20:00 -
[31] Oh, and please take a look at drone speed, they are too slow currently (or they fail to use their mwd properly, it seems). In any case, light drones cannot catch and hit an MWD:ing inty or even fast frigate -- and if they cannot do that, what are they good for? Since we'll be having less drones, those few drones need to be able to catch their primary targte type. I think the biggest problems are in the drone code, not the stats, actually, since "on paper" they have nice max speed but they only seem to use that once when first approaching target. After that they chug along at sub-par speeds and get stuck on each other, etc. With only 5 drones, they *must* move properly, there's no room for error on ships that rely on them. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:29:00 -
[32] Another reason why this is a Gallente nerf: For Gallente drone ships, drones are the primary weapons. If you replace any of the combat (damage) drones with, say, EW drones, you are directly dropping your damage output by a huge amount. The other races get the drones "for free", on top of their primary weapon systems. A Gankageddon can spew out ridiculous amounts of damage *and* do EW now. Etc. Whee. As someone said in another thread: there are good changes here, but this has to be designed in a way that does not make the drone carriers obsolete, or negate the drone specialist players' millions of sps to wasted effort. I'm all for all the races having drone capabilities. I think the basic idea of EW, sentry, etc drones is cool. But right now it looks like it's a boost to all the other races combined to a nerf to Gallente drone users. Not good. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 10:29:00 -
[33] Another reason why this is a Gallente nerf: For Gallente drone ships, drones are the primary weapons. If you replace any of the combat (damage) drones with, say, EW drones, you are directly dropping your damage output by a huge amount. The other races get the drones "for free", on top of their primary weapon systems. A Gankageddon can spew out ridiculous amounts of damage *and* do EW now. Etc. Whee. As someone said in another thread: there are good changes here, but this has to be designed in a way that does not make the drone carriers obsolete, or negate the drone specialist players' millions of sps to wasted effort. I'm all for all the races having drone capabilities. I think the basic idea of EW, sentry, etc drones is cool. But right now it looks like it's a boost to all the other races combined to a nerf to Gallente drone users. Not good. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:47:00 -
[34]
No, I didn't forget the 20% bonus. Please read my post again. My point is that the *relative* drone firepower of the Dom vs other battleships has effectively been reduced. Everyone can train Drone Interfacing, everyone gets the bonus -- it does not factor into discussions of ship balance. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:47:00 -
[35] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 11:50:37
No, I didn't forget the 20% bonus. Please read my post again. My point is that the *relative* drone firepower of the Dom vs other battleships has effectively been reduced. Everyone can train Drone Interfacing, everyone gets the bonus -- it does not factor into discussions of ship balance. Not to mention that the other battleships now actually become *more* flexible with regards to drones than the "drone carrier" is. They can afford to use EW drones and all that good stuff, since it doesn't cut their firepower. The Dom can't, the drones *are* the firepower. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 11:55:00 -
[36] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 11:58:27 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 11:55:55
Read my post. The Dom stays even with the old situation only when it uses thermal drones. If it uses any other sort of drones, it loses a lot of relative firepower. Since only an idiot only uses thermal drones in pvp (slow and predictable), in effect the Dom loses out in reality. I know you love theoretical max DPS calculations. I could not care less, I'm more interested in what actually works. It's like the Raven suddenly only getting the bonuses to kinetic missiles. Would you argue that it's still just as strong as before? The max DPS would stay the same, after all... |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:53:00 -
[37] Tux (and others), I have a suggestion: instead of the damage bonus for the Dom, Ishtar etc, how about a (reduced) drone control bonus? For example, allow them to control max 7 drones at once, as a static ship speciality. Change the actual ship bonus to something drone related but not too overpowering (maybe drone bay size increase, so with high ship skills you'd also be able to choose the drones from some variety). This solves a few things, while keeping things balanced (imho): - Drone ships could use both damage and other drones, without gimping their primary weapon (damage drones). Or they can use all 7 combat drones, resulting in almost the same DPS as now projected (there would be no +10% damage bonus here, so the additional 2 drones actually give less max DPS than current scheme, but allow for versatility). - The number drones in space still stays small and server load stays low. - The drone ships retain their unique, versatile drone role, a reason why a lot of people have trained a long time for them. Comments? |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 12:53:00 -
[38] Tux (and others), I have a suggestion: instead of the damage bonus for the Dom, Ishtar etc, how about a (reduced) drone control bonus? For example, allow them to control max 7 drones at once, as a static ship speciality. Change the actual ship bonus to something drone related but not too overpowering (maybe drone bay size increase, so with high ship skills you'd also be able to choose the drones from some variety). This solves a few things, while keeping things balanced (imho): - Drone ships could use both damage and other drones, without gimping their primary weapon (damage drones). Or they can use all 7 combat drones, resulting in almost the same DPS as now projected (there would be no +10% damage bonus here, so the additional 2 drones actually give less max DPS than current scheme, but allow for versatility). - The number drones in space still stays small and server load stays low. - The drone ships retain their unique, versatile drone role, a reason why a lot of people have trained a long time for them. Comments? |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:29:00 -
[39]
Thank you, that removes my biggest objection to this change. I'd still like to propose the +2 drone control option instead of drone damage bonus (see previous page), but I can live with this, too. Now to try things out. I don't think anyone has any idea yet of what's going to be possible with the new drones and what's not. Should be interesting. I'm a bit woried about some gank ships now aquiring EW capability, too, but maybe it'll balance out. We'll see. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 13:29:00 -
[40]
Thank you, that removes my biggest objection to this change. I'd still like to propose the +2 drone control option instead of drone damage bonus (see previous page), but I can live with this, too. Now to try things out. I don't think anyone has any idea yet of what's going to be possible with the new drones and what's not. Should be interesting. I'm a bit woried about some gank ships now aquiring EW capability, too, but maybe it'll balance out. We'll see. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:07:00 -
[41]
Yes, and I agree. I'm also a bit worried, and think the Dominix may need some boosting. The problem is this: the drone ships cannot afford to play around with the new drone types much, if at all, since drones are their primary damage source. Other ships don't have this problem. So the Dom is pretty much forced to use 5 x damage drones all the time, while, say, a Geddon can gleefully fit for full gank *and* now wield 5 x EW drones, with no sacrifice of firepower. The Dom is losing out in this equation. If it's supposed to be able to actually use non-damage drones also, it needs grid etc so it can fit decent weapons. It has the lowest grid in the game, since it has drones as weapons and supposedly does not need big guns. Well, now it does. Otherwise we'll have the non-drone battleships actually being *more* versatile with drones than the so-called drone battleship. That, or the ability to fit +1/+2 extra drones. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:07:00 -
[42]
Yes, and I agree. I'm also a bit worried, and think the Dominix may need some boosting. The problem is this: the drone ships cannot afford to play around with the new drone types much, if at all, since drones are their primary damage source. Other ships don't have this problem. So the Dom is pretty much forced to use 5 x damage drones all the time, while, say, a Geddon can gleefully fit for full gank *and* now wield 5 x EW drones, with no sacrifice of firepower. The Dom is losing out in this equation. If it's supposed to be able to actually use non-damage drones also, it needs grid etc so it can fit decent weapons. It has the lowest grid in the game, since it has drones as weapons and supposedly does not need big guns. Well, now it does. Otherwise we'll have the non-drone battleships actually being *more* versatile with drones than the so-called drone battleship. That, or the ability to fit +1/+2 extra drones. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:28:00 -
[43]
Quite. I made this same point a few posts back The drone ships cannot afford to use the new non-damage drone types. The other ships can. This makes them more versatile with drones, which is weird -- not to mention the horrors we'll be seeing with gank ships that suddenly get EW capabilities (etc) with no sacrifice to firepower. If the drone ships are supposed to be able to use something else except drones as their primary weapon, the need the grid for it (the current drone ships have pathetic grid, esp the Dom, because it's not designed to fit big guns and instead relies on drones). We need either: - an increase to drone ship grids etc, so they can fit proper weapons and not be forced to use drones as primary or - One or two extra controlled drones for the drone carriers, enabling them to use some non-damage drones in addition to "weapon" drones. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:28:00 -
[44] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 14:31:25
Quite. I made this same point a few posts back The drone ships cannot afford to use the new non-damage drone types. The other ships can. This makes them more versatile with drones, which is weird -- not to mention the horrors we'll be seeing with gank ships that suddenly get EW capabilities (etc) with no sacrifice to firepower. If the drone ships are supposed to be able to use something else except drones as their primary weapon, they need the grid for it (the current drone ships have pathetic grid, esp the Dom, because it's not designed to fit big guns and instead relies on drones). We need either: - an increase to drone ship grids etc, so they can fit proper weapons and not be forced to use drones as primary or - One or two extra controlled drones for the drone carriers, enabling them to use some non-damage drones in addition to "weapon" drones. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:40:00 -
[45]
I agree. I don't see a way to keep drone carriers viable other than to give them X number of drones more than the other ships. That's the *only* way they can actually use drones as their primary weapons. My own previous suggestion was this: - - - Instead of the damage bonus for the Dom, Ishtar etc, how about a (reduced) drone control bonus? For example, allow them to control max 7 drones at once (+2 from normal), as a static ship speciality. Change the actual ship bonus to something drone related but not too overpowering (maybe drone bay size increase, so with high ship skills you'd also be able to choose the drones from some variety). This solves a few things, while keeping things balanced (imho): - Drone ships could use both damage and other drones, without gimping their primary weapon (damage drones). Or they can use all 7 combat drones, resulting in almost the same DPS as now projected (there would be no +10% damage bonus here, so the additional 2 drones actually give less max DPS than current scheme, but allow for versatility). - The number drones in space still stays small and server load stays low. - The drone ships retain their unique, versatile drone role, a reason why a lot of people have trained a long time for them. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:40:00 -
[46]
I agree. I don't see a way to keep drone carriers viable other than to give them X number of drones more than the other ships. That's the *only* way they can actually use drones as their primary weapons. My own previous suggestion was this: - - - Instead of the damage bonus for the Dom, Ishtar etc, how about a (reduced) drone control bonus? For example, allow them to control max 7 drones at once (+2 from normal), as a static ship speciality. Change the actual ship bonus to something drone related but not too overpowering (maybe drone bay size increase, so with high ship skills you'd also be able to choose the drones from some variety). This solves a few things, while keeping things balanced (imho): - Drone ships could use both damage and other drones, without gimping their primary weapon (damage drones). Or they can use all 7 combat drones, resulting in almost the same DPS as now projected (there would be no +10% damage bonus here, so the additional 2 drones actually give less max DPS than current scheme, but allow for versatility). - The number drones in space still stays small and server load stays low. - The drone ships retain their unique, versatile drone role, a reason why a lot of people have trained a long time for them. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:44:00 -
[47] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 14:45:03 HankMurphy, you are an idiot and an alt, and I'll mostly just ignore your rant... ...except to laugh hysterically at your definition of "firepower" as "stuff you can load on your ship". Wow, I can load thousands of torpedos on my Mega, guess my Mega missile firepower is something unholy because of this. Beware the Mega of Torpedo Doom (tm). Almost speechless. Now back to the sane discussion. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:44:00 -
[48] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 01/11/2005 14:45:03 HankMurphy, you are an idiot and an alt, and I'll mostly just ignore your rant... ...except to laugh hysterically at your definition of "firepower" as "stuff you can load on your ship". Wow, I can load thousands of torpedos on my Mega, guess my Mega missile firepower is something unholy because of this. Beware the Mega of Torpedo Doom (tm). Almost speechless. Now back to the sane discussion. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:58:00 -
[49]
Zyrla does this quite well in her post above. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 14:58:00 -
[50]
Zyrla does this quite well in her post above. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.01 19:17:00 -
[51] Well, at least the prices of Ishtars should drop... |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.01 19:17:00 -
[52] Well, at least the prices of Ishtars should drop... |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:18:00 -
[53] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 09:18:20
I don't think you've understood the complaints of the Dom pilots. It's this, in a nutshell: Dom relies on drones for damage. If it uses even one non-damage drone, it's going to be cutting its damage by a huge slice. The Dom has crappy grid (lowest in game) and can't use big weapons, it's designed to use drones as primary. Sum effect: the "drone carrier" ship is the *least* versatile in drone use, it's pretty much locked into using damage drones. Compare to Geddon. It can now use the same number of drones as the Dom (5), *and* it can do so with no sacrifice to firepower (or anything). So we can have gankageddons with 5 x large EW drones, and lovely stuff like that. Other examples exist, Geddon is just the easiest. So in sum: the drone capabilites of other ships have been boosted significantly, while Dom stays where it is (due to its reliance on drones as primary weapons). So in effect, the Dom got nerfed when compared to other ships within its class. Since everything was pretty well balanced before, many see this as a problem. Solution? Not sure. I think the drone carrier ships need some sort of extra bonus so they can use a variety of drones. Maybe an extra 1 or 2 controlled drones (with reduction to damage bonus so DPS doesn't rise too much), or something. As is, all the drone carriers in the game are getting nerfed when compared to other ships in their class. It's not about DPS. It's about versatility, and the fact that all the other ships *except* the drone ships are now more versatile with drones. Drone ships can't afford that. Which I suspect is not a side effect that CCP quite intended here. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:18:00 -
[54] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 09:18:20
I don't think you've understood the complaints of the Dom pilots. It's this, in a nutshell: Dom relies on drones for damage. If it uses even one non-damage drone, it's going to be cutting its damage by a huge slice. The Dom has crappy grid (lowest in game) and can't use big weapons, it's designed to use drones as primary. Sum effect: the "drone carrier" ship is the *least* versatile in drone use, it's pretty much locked into using damage drones. Compare to Geddon. It can now use the same number of drones as the Dom (5), *and* it can do so with no sacrifice to firepower (or anything). So we can have gankageddons with 5 x large EW drones, and lovely stuff like that. Other examples exist, Geddon is just the easiest. So in sum: the drone capabilites of other ships have been boosted significantly, while Dom stays where it is (due to its reliance on drones as primary weapons). So in effect, the Dom got nerfed when compared to other ships within its class. Since everything was pretty well balanced before, many see this as a problem. Solution? Not sure. I think the drone carrier ships need some sort of extra bonus so they can use a variety of drones. Maybe an extra 1 or 2 controlled drones (with reduction to damage bonus so DPS doesn't rise too much), or something. As is, all the drone carriers in the game are getting nerfed when compared to other ships in their class. It's not about DPS. It's about versatility, and the fact that all the other ships *except* the drone ships are now more versatile with drones. Drone ships can't afford that. Which I suspect is not a side effect that CCP quite intended here. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:32:00 -
[55] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 09:32:44
Sorry. but gotta agree with j0 here... if using autolock in Empire somehow mystically gets you killed by Concord, I think the problem is between the chair and the keyboard. If you automatically go F1..4 at anything you have targetted then yes, autolock can be a hazard. Hell, at that point undocking will be a hazard for you. Most sane people pay attention to what they are shooting at. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 09:32:00 -
[56] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 09:32:44
Sorry. but gotta agree with j0 here... if using autolock in Empire somehow mystically gets you killed by Concord, I think the problem is between the chair and the keyboard. If you automatically go F1..4 at anything you have targetted then yes, autolock can be a hazard. Hell, at that point undocking will be a hazard for you. Most sane people pay attention to what they are shooting at. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:25:00 -
[57]
As me and quite a few drone specialists have noted, this is not true. Drone specialists are actually getting kicked in the teeth here, *everyone else* gets a boost. When you've spent months and months training high-rank drone skills to get there, and then have them made semi-useless (yes, a bit more damage from my Drone Interfacing V is semi-useless, seeing it's a rank 5 skill), makes for unhappy campers.
Variety in what you can have in your drone bay doesn't count for all that much, when you cannot actually use that variety. Dom needs drones for combat. Sure, we can choose the damage type -- but we could do so before this, too. So the Dom stays the same. Meanwhile, the drone capabilities of other ships have been *significantly* boosted compared to the Dom. Many of them can now launch exactly as many drones as the Dom can -- and since they aren't "drone ships" and aren't hampered by lousy ship stats, they get this in addition to their normal damage and tanking. Dom: grid 9000, 5 drones, 6 turret slots (but can't mount large weapons due to grid) Geddon: grid 16500, 5 drones, 7 turret slots (and is *already* known for excellent damage output) You really don't see a problem here? The battleships were pretty well balanced before, I think most people agree on this. Now the comparative drone capabilities of some of them have been significantly raised. Quick quiz: what do you imagine this does to battleship balance? |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:25:00 -
[58] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 10:29:43
As me and quite a few drone specialists have noted, this is not true. Drone specialists are actually getting kicked in the teeth here, *everyone else* gets a boost. When you've spent months and months training high-rank drone skills to get there, and then have them made semi-useless (yes, a bit more damage from my Drone Interfacing V is semi-useless, seeing it's a rank 5 skill), makes for unhappy campers.
Variety in what you can have in your drone bay doesn't count for all that much, when you cannot actually use that variety. Dom needs drones for combat. Sure, we can choose the damage type -- but we could do so before this, too. So the Dom stays the same. Meanwhile, the drone capabilities of other ships have been *significantly* boosted compared to the Dom. Many of them can now launch exactly as many drones as the Dom can -- and since they aren't "drone ships" and aren't hampered by lousy ship stats, they get this in addition to their normal damage and tanking. Dom: grid 9000, 5 drones, 6 turret slots (but can't mount large weapons due to grid) Geddon: grid 16500, 5 drones, 7 turret slots (and is *already* known for excellent damage output) You really don't see a problem here? The battleships were pretty well balanced before, I think most people agree on this. Now the comparative drone capabilities of some of them have been significantly raised. Quick quiz: what do you imagine this does to battleship balance? It doesn't much matter how many drones I have in the hold, just like it doesn't much matter how many missiles I have in the cargo bay. What matters is how many I can use at once (=firepower). |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:32:00 -
[59] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 10:33:13
Oh ffs Nafri, get your head out of the paper bag (and how about sometimes not quoting the entire post just to add one line of comment, eh?) Of course the Dom *can* fit large weapons if it sacrifices enough low slots. But the Geddon can do that with no sacrifice (as can other battleships) and use those low slots for something else. Again: 9000 grid vs 16500 grid. 7 lowslots vs 8 lowslots. You do the math. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:32:00 -
[60] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 10:33:13
Oh ffs Nafri, get your head out of the paper bag (and how about sometimes not quoting the entire post just to add one line of comment, eh?) Of course the Dom *can* fit large weapons if it sacrifices enough low slots. But the Geddon can do that with no sacrifice (as can other battleships) and use those low slots for something else. Again: 9000 grid vs 16500 grid. 7 lowslots vs 8 lowslots. You do the math. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:43:00 -
[61]
Ah, ok, I see the problem now, thanks. Haven't run into that myself yet, but I'll admit it's possible for autolock to screw things up in the middle of a bigger battle and what you *think* is locked is actually something else. Ok, apologies, you do have a point. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 10:43:00 -
[62]
Ah, ok, I see the problem now, thanks. Haven't run into that myself yet, but I'll admit it's possible for autolock to screw things up in the middle of a bigger battle and what you *think* is locked is actually something else. Ok, apologies, you do have a point. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:31:00 -
[63] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 11:36:22
It's a boost to everyone using drones in a non-drone ship. It's a *huge* boost to ships like the Geddon etc, which suddenly get EW capability etc and the same number of drones in space as the Dom. It's a nerf to the dedicated drone carrier ships (Dom gets hits worst, here). To clear things up: I like a lot of things about this change. I like the new drone types (at least on paper). I like new drone skills and modules. I just don't like the fact that as envisioned currently, this change will affect ship balance in some unfortunate ways. That still needs some looking at. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:31:00 -
[64] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 11:36:22
It's a boost to everyone using drones in a non-drone ship. It's a *huge* boost to ships like the Geddon etc, which suddenly get EW capability etc and the same number of drones in space as the Dom. It's a nerf to the dedicated drone carrier ships (Dom gets hits worst, here). To clear things up: I like a lot of things about this change. I like the new drone types (at least on paper). I like new drone skills and modules. I just don't like the fact that as envisioned currently, this change will affect ship balance in some unfortunate ways. That still needs some looking at. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:54:00 -
[65]
Read my previous posts about this very subject. If you don't understand my argument, I see no reason to repeat it here for your amusement. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 11:54:00 -
[66]
Read my previous posts about this very subject. If you don't understand my argument, I see no reason to repeat it here for your amusement. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:35:00 -
[67]
That does not apply to all drone carriers, but yes that is a small improvement.
More damaging? I must have missed something, to me it seems that the damage is staying exactly where it is. And as many people have noted, the flexibility is more on paper, since the drone carriers cannot easily afford to use the new flexible types of drones (unless they don't mind doing zero-to-no damage). It's not a question of the Dom having been reduced. It's a question of many of the other battleships having been boosted in relation. This screws up balance. This is *great* for all other battleships that have drone bay, except Dom. Geddon is the biggest winner here, having the same drone output as the Dom now, but it's not the only one. You can consider it a Dom nerf or a Geddon (etc) boost, however you want to look at it. But if you posit that battleships were balanced before, this breaks that balance. 9000 grid vs 16500 grid, less lowslots, same number of drones. Balanced, not. The number of drones I have in my drone bay don't really matter that much, when I can only use just as many of them as the Geddon can (and it has vastly better combat stats). Note that the Geddon isn't the only relatively unbalanced ship here (wrt Dom), it's just the easiest example because the differences in grid etc are so absolutely huge. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 12:35:00 -
[68]
That does not apply to all drone carriers, but yes that is a small improvement.
More damaging? I must have missed something, to me it seems that the damage is staying exactly where it is. And as many people have noted, the flexibility is more on paper, since the drone carriers cannot easily afford to use the new flexible types of drones (unless they don't mind doing zero-to-no damage). It's not a question of the Dom having been reduced. It's a question of many of the other battleships having been boosted in relation. This screws up balance. This is *great* for all other battleships that have drone bay, except Dom. Geddon is the biggest winner here, having the same drone output as the Dom now, but it's not the only one. You can consider it a Dom nerf or a Geddon (etc) boost, however you want to look at it. But if you posit that battleships were balanced before, this breaks that balance. 9000 grid vs 16500 grid, less lowslots, same number of drones. Balanced, not. The number of drones I have in my drone bay don't really matter that much, when I can only use just as many of them as the Geddon can (and it has vastly better combat stats). Note that the Geddon isn't the only relatively unbalanced ship here (wrt Dom), it's just the easiest example because the differences in grid etc are so absolutely huge. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:00:00 -
[69]
What? So a Dom is somehow magically immune to small ships and can use whatever drone it wants, while the Geddon cannot? The Geddon has total choice in what drones it wants to use, since that choice does not effect its primary weapon system. Yes, if it runs all EW drones it runs a risk vs. smaller ships, but that's just it. The Geddon can make tactical choices in what drones is carries. The Dom cannot. Its damage is based on using only damage drones, each damage drone that it swaps out drops that damage by *a lot*. Since it gets no bonuses to non-damage drones and cal field the same number of drones as the Geddon can, using non-damage drones with a Dom does not make sense. Which is the point here. The Dom is tied to damage drones, while the Geddon (and others are free to make tactical choices). In effect, gank ships like the Geddon have now gained EW ability. Dom has gained nothing it can reasonably use.
We're talking about battleship balance here. Unless the new drone modules can only be fitted on a Dom (or unless the Dom gets significant bonuses for them, which might not be a bad idea), the new drone modules do not matter since any ship (yes, including that damn Geddon) can use them. And besides, we don't have any specs on those modules yet, so discussion based on them is a bit iffy. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:00:00 -
[70]
What? So a Dom is somehow magically immune to small ships and can use whatever drone it wants, while the Geddon cannot? The Geddon has total choice in what drones it wants to use, since that choice does not effect its primary weapon system. Yes, if it runs all EW drones it runs a risk vs. smaller ships, but that's just it. The Geddon can make tactical choices in what drones is carries. The Dom cannot. Its damage is based on using only damage drones, each damage drone that it swaps out drops that damage by *a lot*. Since it gets no bonuses to non-damage drones and cal field the same number of drones as the Geddon can, using non-damage drones with a Dom does not make sense. Which is the point here. The Dom is tied to damage drones, while the Geddon (and others are free to make tactical choices). In effect, gank ships like the Geddon have now gained EW ability. Dom has gained nothing it can reasonably use.
We're talking about battleship balance here. Unless the new drone modules can only be fitted on a Dom (or unless the Dom gets significant bonuses for them, which might not be a bad idea), the new drone modules do not matter since any ship (yes, including that damn Geddon) can use them. And besides, we don't have any specs on those modules yet, so discussion based on them is a bit iffy. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:06:00 -
[71] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 13:08:30
Re: sentries, yeah I forgot those. Yes, correct, those will be interesting. But again, anyone can use them. As for Dom vs Geddon, I'll just have to say I disagree and see the Geddon coming out significantly ahead in this. But I guess the final arbiter will be what the new flavor of the month is after this goes live, we'll see I'm not claiming we're talking about huge nerfs here. But I do feel that the drone-based ships aren't getting nearly as much out of this deal than other ships are, and am a bit worried about balence issues. Now, taking down the Ishtar a peg may be a good idea. But the Dom (and Vexor) do worry me a bit. We'll see. Added: if the drone carrier ships were to get some bonuses regarding the upcoming drone modules, I think that might well balance things out and keep them proper "drone ships" (instead of "ships with slightly better drone abilities). |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:06:00 -
[72] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 13:08:30
Re: sentries, yeah I forgot those. Yes, correct, those will be interesting. But again, anyone can use them. As for Dom vs Geddon, I'll just have to say I disagree and see the Geddon coming out significantly ahead in this. But I guess the final arbiter will be what the new flavor of the month is after this goes live, we'll see I'm not claiming we're talking about huge nerfs here. But I do feel that the drone-based ships aren't getting nearly as much out of this deal than other ships are, and am a bit worried about balence issues. Now, taking down the Ishtar a peg may be a good idea. But the Dom (and Vexor) do worry me a bit. We'll see. Added: if the drone carrier ships were to get some bonuses regarding the upcoming drone modules, I think that might well balance things out and keep them proper "drone ships" (instead of "ships with slightly better drone abilities). |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:18:00 -
[73]
Oh, I wasn't aware it was the best BS in the game currently, I was under the (apparently mistaken) assumption that it was pretty well balanced with the other battleships right now. Silly me. And seeing as you're soon out of this game, too, judging by your sig... don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:18:00 -
[74]
Oh, I wasn't aware it was the best BS in the game currently, I was under the (apparently mistaken) assumption that it was pretty well balanced with the other battleships right now. Silly me. And seeing as you're soon out of this game, too, judging by your sig... don't let the door hit you on your way out. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:24:00 -
[75]
A bit worse, I'd say. Even more so than the Dom, you're forced to only use damage drones (you *really* don't have the grid for big weapons). Your opposition now has a lot more stuff to use against you, and it's easier to remove your only weapons (drones). Yes, they will have more hitpoints, but everyone knows that's not the whole story, targeting times etc matter a lot more. Your drones will go boom more easily now. I don't see the Ishtar as a huge problem, as it was an extremely powerful HAC before. Now it's just like the rest of them, not bad by any means but no longer that wonderful. Those comments are pvp ones. In pve it'll stay the same or better, I'd say. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:24:00 -
[76]
A bit worse, I'd say. Even more so than the Dom, you're forced to only use damage drones (you *really* don't have the grid for big weapons). Your opposition now has a lot more stuff to use against you, and it's easier to remove your only weapons (drones). Yes, they will have more hitpoints, but everyone knows that's not the whole story, targeting times etc matter a lot more. Your drones will go boom more easily now. I don't see the Ishtar as a huge problem, as it was an extremely powerful HAC before. Now it's just like the rest of them, not bad by any means but no longer that wonderful. Those comments are pvp ones. In pve it'll stay the same or better, I'd say. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:28:00 -
[77]
Except, of course, that as noted the Geddon, Mega and Phoon have a lot more real-life tactical choice in what drones they use. Dom & EW drones is totally wasting a major ship bonus. And in combat, the difference between 10 drones and 15 drones is the difference between 4 turrets and 6 turrets. Most would agree that that is, in fact, "a lot". Otherwise we would not have all the Eagle pilots desperately screaming for one more turret slot, etc. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:28:00 -
[78]
Except, of course, that as noted the Geddon, Mega and Phoon have a lot more real-life tactical choice in what drones they use. Dom & EW drones is totally wasting a major ship bonus. And in combat, the difference between 10 drones and 15 drones is the difference between 4 turrets and 6 turrets. Most would agree that that is, in fact, "a lot". Otherwise we would not have all the Eagle pilots desperately screaming for one more turret slot, etc. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:38:00 -
[79]
Yup, I agree that that capability is good. I'm just extremely sceptical of it ever being of any use, especially since you can't switch drones in space very easily; once you commit to a set of drones, it's *very* unlikely that you'll have the time to recall them and launch a new set. Thing is, I'm seeing less reason to fly the Dom after this, since with other ships I can use drones almost as well, *and* do all the good stuff those ships excelled in on top of that. I'm *not* saying the Dom will be useless now. It's just a lot more limited than it should be, compared to the new drone capabilities of the other ships. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 13:38:00 -
[80] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 13:44:21
Yup, I agree that that capability is good. I'm just extremely sceptical of it ever being of any use, especially since you can't switch drones in space very easily; once you commit to a set of drones, it's *very* unlikely that you'll have the time to recall them and launch a new set. Thing is, I'm seeing less reason to fly the Dom after this, since with other ships I can use drones almost as well, *and* do all the good stuff those ships excelled in on top of that. I'm not saying the Dom will be useless now. It's just a lot more limited than it should be, compared to the new drone capabilities of the other ships. Added: I'll be very happy if it proves that you're right, and that the Dom is still competitive versus the other battleships. At this stage, we really don't know where things will go, all we can do is wave our hands around and panic ;) |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:06:00 -
[81] Note to all: new dev blog is up. My concerns have reduced, this is starting to look good (Tux notes the possibility for small Dom tweak, extra drone hps or some such). |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:06:00 -
[82] Note to all: new dev blog is up. My concerns have reduced, this is starting to look good (Tux notes the possibility for small Dom tweak, extra drone hps or some such). |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:31:00 -
[83]
I feel you pain, but that's never going to happen. Otherwise people who have trained Drone Interfacing V (like me, took a month grr) will demand that those "extra" skill points be transferred somewhere else, and things will get messy. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:31:00 -
[84]
I feel you pain, but that's never going to happen. Otherwise people who have trained Drone Interfacing V (like me, took a month grr) will demand that those "extra" skill points be transferred somewhere else, and things will get messy. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:33:00 -
[85]
Well, he *did* note that the carriers might be getting a drone hp bonus, so drones launched from them would be more durable. Not sure if it makes up for things, but it would be something at least. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:33:00 -
[86]
Well, he *did* note that the carriers might be getting a drone hp bonus, so drones launched from them would be more durable. Not sure if it makes up for things, but it would be something at least. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:37:00 -
[87]
I'm all for giving the Cerb a general bonus (and I don't even fly the things). I think it's generally agreed that at the moment, Caldari HACs are a bit underpowered in comparison. Not by huge amounts, but but by a bit yes. I'm not a dev so this doesn't change anything, but for what it's worth, I agree with you. The Cerb must not get the same DPS as the close-range HACs (for obvious reasons), but this damage type limitation to just one is stupid imho. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 14:37:00 -
[88]
I'm all for giving the Cerb a general bonus (and I don't even fly the things). I think it's generally agreed that at the moment, Caldari HACs are a bit underpowered in comparison. Not by huge amounts, but but by a bit yes. I'm not a dev so this doesn't change anything, but for what it's worth, I agree with you. The Cerb must not get the same DPS as the close-range HACs (for obvious reasons), but this damage type limitation to just one is stupid imho. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.02 18:45:00 -
[89] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 18:45:40 Tux, I'm a drone user so it might surprise you to hear this, but: Could we please have a reduction in heavy drone tracking / effective damage vs. small ships? Along with this, I'd like a boost to light drone effectiveness against those same small ships. At the moment, heavy drones are *much* too effective vs all ship types (sort of the old missile problem), while light drones are very close to useles (even a swarm of them won't really harm an interceptor). I'd like some reason to also use light and medium drones, please, instead of just always heavies if I can fit them. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.02 18:45:00 -
[90] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 02/11/2005 18:45:40 Tux, I'm a drone user so it might surprise you to hear this, but: Could we please have a reduction in heavy drone tracking / effective damage vs. small ships? Along with this, I'd like a boost to light drone effectiveness against those same small ships. At the moment, heavy drones are *much* too effective vs all ship types (sort of the old missile problem), while light drones are very close to useles (even a swarm of them won't really harm an interceptor). I'd like some reason to also use light and medium drones, please, instead of just always heavies if I can fit them. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 09:00:00 -
[91] Tux, any info on whether you're considering changing drone tracking and gun resolution? Currently heavy drones hit any ship class at any speed *much* too well (imho). Mediums are usually useless in comparison, and lights are totally useless because their damage output is so small even 10 of them cannot threaten an untanked frigate/inty. If we had something like this: - heavy drones have best damage, slowest speed, have problems hitting frigates reliably - mediums have less damage, more speed, have problems hitting interceptors but otherwise hit reliably - lights have the least damage but most speed, reliably hit anything and 5 of them (in new system) can kill a t1 frigate or seriously threaten an inty ...then I think we'd have more balance, and more reason to use light and medium drones. At the moment, heavy drones are a one-stop solution to everything, sort of like torpedos used to be in the missile department. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 09:00:00 -
[92] Tux, any info on whether you're considering changing drone tracking and gun resolution? Currently heavy drones hit any ship class at any speed *much* too well (imho). Mediums are usually useless in comparison, and lights are totally useless because their damage output is so small even 10 of them cannot threaten an untanked frigate/inty. If we had something like this: - heavy drones have best damage, slowest speed, have problems hitting frigates reliably - mediums have less damage, more speed, have problems hitting interceptors but otherwise hit reliably - lights have the least damage but most speed, reliably hit anything and 5 of them (in new system) can kill a t1 frigate or seriously threaten an inty ...then I think we'd have more balance, and more reason to use light and medium drones. At the moment, heavy drones are a one-stop solution to everything, sort of like torpedos used to be in the missile department. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 09:55:00 -
[93]
Likewise, there is no point in using non-damage drones on Dominix etc, which is a bit screwy. I don't actually quite understand why you wouldn't use damage drones (or any drone you like, for that matter) on Caldari ships... since you're not getting any drone bonuses, you should be able to choose any drone type you want. Or am I missing something here? Regardless, even if we just look at the EW drones... I'd think 3 x webber drones would make tacklers easy meat for your missiles. Or 2 x webber + a painter drone. Or some other combo. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 09:55:00 -
[94]
Likewise, there is no point in using non-damage drones on Dominix etc, which is a bit screwy. I don't actually quite understand why you wouldn't use damage drones (or any drone you like, for that matter) on Caldari ships... since you're not getting any drone bonuses, you should be able to choose any drone type you want. Or am I missing something here? Regardless, even if we just look at the EW drones... I'd think 3 x webber drones would make tacklers easy meat for your missiles. Or 2 x webber + a painter drone. Or some other combo. |
 Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 15:51:00 -
[95] Frankly, I don't have a problem with newbies not being able to use drones as effectively as people who have sunk months of training into drones. In fact, this is the way it should be. You can still *use* drones, and have them be moderately useful. But like guns, missiles, EW, etc, if you want to be really good at them you're looking at long specialization times. ...and this is good, imho. It would be boring if everybody could do everything as well, people who have sunk lots of time with drones *should* be significantly more effective with them than newbies -- otherwise things become pointless. Newbies can't shoot guns as well as people who have trained spec levels 4-5. This is the same thing. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 15:51:00 -
[96] Frankly, I don't have a problem with newbies not being able to use drones as effectively as people who have sunk months of training into drones. In fact, this is the way it should be. You can still *use* drones, and have them be moderately useful. But like guns, missiles, EW, etc, if you want to be really good at them you're looking at long specialization times. ...and this is good, imho. It would be boring if everybody could do everything as well, people who have sunk lots of time with drones *should* be significantly more effective with them than newbies -- otherwise things become pointless. Newbies can't shoot guns as well as people who have trained spec levels 4-5. This is the same thing. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 16:08:00 -
[97]
That's true. On the other hand, there are valid complaints about heavy drones being maybe a bit too powerful against small ships -- perhaps this will help a little bit with that, with general drone damage amounts dropping a bit? Dunno. You also have to realize that ships that can launch drones now get a ton of new options. Your Raven with your skills may do a bit less damage now with damage drones (though probably still enough to kill tacklers), but you can now do stuff like dumping out 2 x webber drones + one painter drone, making that tackler easy prey to your missiles. Or stuff like that. We'll see how it turns out in practice. I don't think it's all doom and gloom for non-drone specialists. In fact, I feel that the "casual" drone users are getting the sweeter part of this deal, with new options that are fairly easy to use. Of course, all that depends on the final skill requirements, skill ranks, etc. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 16:08:00 -
[98]
That's true. On the other hand, there are valid complaints about heavy drones being maybe a bit too powerful against small ships -- perhaps this will help a little bit with that, with general drone damage amounts dropping a bit? Dunno. You also have to realize that ships that can launch drones now get a ton of new options. Your Raven with your skills may do a bit less damage now with damage drones (though probably still enough to kill tacklers), but you can now do stuff like dumping out 2 x webber drones + one painter drone, making that tackler easy prey to your missiles. Or stuff like that. We'll see how it turns out in practice. I don't think it's all doom and gloom for non-drone specialists. In fact, I feel that the "casual" drone users are getting the sweeter part of this deal, with new options that are fairly easy to use. Of course, all that depends on the final skill requirements, skill ranks, etc. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 19:58:00 -
[99] Well, it's sort of like missiles. They went from something anyone could train up in a few days to acceptable levels to something you actually need serious skills at (like gunnery). After the missile changes, you either accepted that your damage output had been severely reduced, or you trained up a bunch of new skills. No difference here. Drones are being made into more of a "primary weapon system", in that they need skills to use properly and noobs can only get basic output from them. Like guns, like missiles, like EW. I don't really see the problem here. You want to be good at drones, you train skills. Simple. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 19:58:00 -
[100] Well, it's sort of like missiles. They went from something anyone could train up in a few days to acceptable levels to something you actually need serious skills at (like gunnery). After the missile changes, you either accepted that your damage output had been severely reduced, or you trained up a bunch of new skills. No difference here. Drones are being made into more of a "primary weapon system", in that they need skills to use properly and noobs can only get basic output from them. Like guns, like missiles, like EW. I don't really see the problem here. You want to be good at drones, you train skills. Simple. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.03 20:20:00 -
[101]
Yeah, I see your point. I wish there was a way to specialize more, maybe the upcoming skills and modules will allow for more of that. One hopes. Sure will be interesting to see what new strategies people cook up, that's for sure. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.03 20:20:00 -
[102]
Yeah, I see your point. I wish there was a way to specialize more, maybe the upcoming skills and modules will allow for more of that. One hopes. Sure will be interesting to see what new strategies people cook up, that's for sure. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:12:00 -
[103]
Well, to illustrate the complaint, I'll use an analogy. What if they suddenly added those webber missiles and painting missiles to the game, and gave all non-Raven battleships 4 extra launcher slots so they could use them. Your Raven would get no bonus for these new missiles, but of course it could use them too, just like anyone else. Sure, your Raven would have the most launchers in the game, but when using the new "special" missiles it would get no bonus and would perform just like all other battleships. As a Raven pilot, would you see that as a completely fair deal? Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. But that's the situation with the new drones and Dominix. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:12:00 -
[104]
Well, to illustrate the complaint, I'll use an analogy. What if they suddenly added those webber missiles and painting missiles to the game, and gave all non-Raven battleships 4 extra launcher slots so they could use them. Your Raven would get no bonus for these new missiles, but of course it could use them too, just like anyone else. Sure, your Raven would have the most launchers in the game, but when using the new "special" missiles it would get no bonus and would perform just like all other battleships. As a Raven pilot, would you see that as a completely fair deal? Maybe you would, maybe you wouldn't. But that's the situation with the new drones and Dominix. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:38:00 -
[105] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 16:39:46 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 16:39:18
Oh they didn't? Let's look at that, shall we? Before: Dom 15 drones in air, Geddon 10 drones in air After: Dom 5 drones in air, Geddon 5 drones in air. In the case of EW drones, webber drones etc (which is what this whole discussion is about) one Dom drone is the same as one Geddon drone. ..and you know what? Geddon effectively just got a huge increase in drone capability, compared to Dom in the old situation. Now, is this a huge problem? I'm not sure. Maybe is, maybe isn't. But there *is* some difference in the battleship balance now, and no amount of handwaving and "let me just quote another 50 lines and add one line of comment of my own" mass posting will make that go away. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:38:00 -
[106] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 16:39:46 Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 16:39:18
Oh they didn't? Let's look at that, shall we? Before: Dom 15 drones in air, Geddon 10 drones in air After: Dom 5 drones in air, Geddon 5 drones in air. In the case of EW drones, webber drones etc (which is what this whole discussion is about) one Dom drone is the same as one Geddon drone. ..and you know what? Geddon effectively just got a huge increase in drone capability, compared to Dom in the old situation. Now, is this a huge problem? I'm not sure. Maybe is, maybe isn't. But there *is* some difference in the battleship balance now, and no amount of handwaving and "let me just quote another 50 lines and add one line of comment of my own" mass posting will make that go away. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:59:00 -
[107] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 17:00:50
I agree. All I'm saying is that there *has* been some battleship balance change (which Nafri totally denies). Nobody really knows yet what the real effects will be. With the changes in stacking and the Gankageddon losing a bit of its bite, maybe it's a good thing that it has gained some new tricks. We'll see. I'm personally pretty much ok with things now, after reading the second dev blog. I'm not *happy* that Dom is pretty much tied to damage drones, but I can live with it -- and I'm sure there are setups in which it makes sense to use, say, EW drones on a Dom. In most cases, though, you'll want the damage drones. We'll see. I see some potential problems with some gank ships now getting "free" EW capability, but I trust players will find the problem cases sooner rather than later |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 16:59:00 -
[108] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 17:00:50
I agree. All I'm saying is that there *has* been some battleship balance change (which Nafri totally denies). Nobody really knows yet what the real effects will be. With the changes in stacking and the Gankageddon losing a bit of its bite, maybe it's a good thing that it has gained some new tricks. We'll see. I'm personally pretty much ok with things now, after reading the second dev blog. I'm not *happy* that Dom is pretty much tied to damage drones, but I can live with it -- and I'm sure there are setups in which it makes sense to use, say, EW drones on a Dom. In most cases, though, you'll want the damage drones. We'll see. I see some potential problems with some gank ships now getting "free" EW capability, but I trust players will find the problem cases sooner rather than later |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:02:00 -
[109]
True. Analogies are always hazardous, was just trying to illustrate the argument of why some Dom pilots are unhappy with things. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:02:00 -
[110]
True. Analogies are always hazardous, was just trying to illustrate the argument of why some Dom pilots are unhappy with things. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:19:00 -
[111] Nafri, I agree that the Dom does not lose damage when using damage drones. Things are fine there. And of course it can use the new EW drones on top of it's own midslots -- any battleship can. That's not the point. The point (as has been repeated so often by so many people), is that using non-damage drones on the Dom "costs" a huge amount of firepower, making them a lot less useful for the Dom compared to the other ships. Of course, there are special cases where they can make sense (when the Dom is flown as a turret gank boat, etc). But generally the new setup ties the drone carrier ship to mostly just using damage drones if they want to deal comparable damage in combat with other ships of their class. I don't think either one of us is going to convince each other here, and we seem to be going round and round. How about we just agree to disagree on this, and see what happens? After the changes and clarification in the second drone devlog I no longer have major issues with this change -- I do think the Dom is being limited a bit here, as I've said, but I can live with that. And I think testing will iron out the biggest inbalances (at least I can hope). To correct any possible misunderstanding: I don't want to see the Dom made any more powerful than it is currently (in "old" drone system). I think it's extremely balanced with the other ships right now, with the huge potential DPS with drones and blasters being offset by the very close range those require and the general clumsiness of drones. I'd like to see that balance continue. Flying a ship that is "uber" is bad -- because you know that's going to be the next to get the nerf bat. I'd much rather have a good, solid ship than an "uber" one, any day. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:19:00 -
[112] Nafri, I agree that the Dom does not lose damage when using damage drones. Things are fine there. And of course it can use the new EW drones on top of it's own midslots -- any battleship can. That's not the point. The point (as has been repeated so often by so many people), is that using non-damage drones on the Dom "costs" a huge amount of firepower, making them a lot less useful for the Dom compared to the other ships. Of course, there are special cases where they can make sense (when the Dom is flown as a turret gank boat, etc). But generally the new setup ties the drone carrier ship to mostly just using damage drones if they want to deal comparable damage in combat with other ships of their class. I don't think either one of us is going to convince each other here, and we seem to be going round and round. How about we just agree to disagree on this, and see what happens? After the changes and clarification in the second drone devlog I no longer have major issues with this change -- I do think the Dom is being limited a bit here, as I've said, but I can live with that. And I think testing will iron out the biggest inbalances (at least I can hope). To correct any possible misunderstanding: I don't want to see the Dom made any more powerful than it is currently (in "old" drone system). I think it's extremely balanced with the other ships right now, with the huge potential DPS with drones and blasters being offset by the very close range those require and the general clumsiness of drones. I'd like to see that balance continue. Flying a ship that is "uber" is bad -- because you know that's going to be the next to get the nerf bat. I'd much rather have a good, solid ship than an "uber" one, any day. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:58:00 -
[113] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 18:02:57
Ah, so you're in the opinion that the Dominix is overpowered right now? That would explain your comments and line of thinking. Thing is, I'm not sure it's a totally valid complaint. Sure, the Dom is flexible, that's the point of the ship. It pays for that with crappy grid (smallest bs grid in game) and otherwise lacklustre stats. It has a flexible slot layout, true, that is one of the good things about it... but it doesn't have launcher slots, and it doesn't have the grid to fit very large weapons without either sacrificing a bunch of low slots or forgetting about defence and going full-gank. Other than the drones and slot layout, it has pretty miserable ship stats for a battleship. I have to confess I've never heard anyone consider it overpowered. It's good in 1vs1's but pretty much sucks in fleet combat, since it's limited to close or ultra-close range (depends on setup). It's generally considered to be a balanced ship, when compared with other battleships. So if you see it as unbalanced *currently*, then that would explain your stance(?) Or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I do agree with you that giving the Dom a bonus for the non-damage new drones would probably make it overpowerful, at least if it got the full bonus. I'm not advocating that (though some others are, I guess). If the Dom gets the drone HP bonus that Tux talked about in the last devblog, I guess that balances things out a bit. The Dom will still be semi-limited to damage drones, but at least they'll be a bit more durable than ones from other ships. In short: I'm ok with the new drone system now. I'm not totally happy with all parts of it, but I think it will work out. We'll see. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 17:58:00 -
[114] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 18:02:57
Ah, so you're in the opinion that the Dominix is overpowered right now? That would explain your comments and line of thinking. Thing is, I'm not sure it's a totally valid complaint. Sure, the Dom is flexible, that's the point of the ship. It pays for that with crappy grid (smallest bs grid in game) and otherwise lacklustre stats. It has a flexible slot layout, true, that is one of the good things about it... but it doesn't have launcher slots, and it doesn't have the grid to fit very large weapons without either sacrificing a bunch of low slots or forgetting about defence and going full-gank. Other than the drones and slot layout, it has pretty miserable ship stats for a battleship. I have to confess I've never heard anyone consider it overpowered. It's good in 1vs1's but pretty much sucks in fleet combat, since it's limited to close or ultra-close range (depends on setup). It's generally considered to be a balanced ship, when compared with other battleships. So if you see it as unbalanced *currently*, then that would explain your stance(?) Or did I misunderstand what you were saying? I do agree with you that giving the Dom a bonus for the non-damage new drones would probably make it overpowerful, at least if it got the full bonus. I'm not advocating that (though some others are, I guess). If the Dom gets the drone HP bonus that Tux talked about in the last devblog, I guess that balances things out a bit. The Dom will still be semi-limited to damage drones, but at least they'll be a bit more durable than ones from other ships. In short: I'm ok with the new drone system now. I'm not totally happy with all parts of it, but I think it will work out. We'll see. |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:08:00 -
[115] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 18:09:35
Yeah, I'm a bit wary of those myself. If I'm in a Deimos mwd:in towards Mr. Soon-to-be-dead, who suddenly launches a pile of webber drones and freezes me in my tracks, I'm going to be unhappy (and probably dead). On the other hand, I can carry webber drones in my Deimos, and use the "freed" midslot for, say, a tracking disruptor. If the other guy doesn't have webber drones, it might work wonderfully. Lots of new strategies out there. I actually like it that a lot of the more 2-dimensional ships (Geddon etc) are getting extra tricks they can pull off. I'm a bit worried about some balance issues, and the new sentry drones *look* a bit unbalanced, but we'll see. Should be interesting, at least. Oh, and the amount of havoc a mk2 Arbitrator with 5 x tracking disruptor drones can wreak as part of a small battle group is going to be fun  |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:08:00 -
[116] Edited by: Alex Harumichi on 04/11/2005 18:09:35
Yeah, I'm a bit wary of those myself. If I'm in a Deimos mwd:in towards Mr. Soon-to-be-dead, who suddenly launches a pile of webber drones and freezes me in my tracks, I'm going to be unhappy (and probably dead). On the other hand, I can carry webber drones in my Deimos, and use the "freed" midslot for, say, a tracking disruptor. If the other guy doesn't have webber drones, it might work wonderfully. Lots of new strategies out there. I actually like it that a lot of the more 2-dimensional ships (Geddon etc) are getting extra tricks they can pull off. I'm a bit worried about some balance issues, and the new sentry drones *look* a bit unbalanced, but we'll see. Should be interesting, at least. Oh, and the amount of havoc a mk2 Arbitrator with 5 x tracking disruptor drones can wreak as part of a small battle group is going to be fun |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:14:00 -
[117]
Heh, yeah  But hey, a Phoon should get a lot of mileage out of the new drone system. Lots of fun you can have with the Phoon speed + layout + 5 x heavy drones with funky effects. I just started training Minmatar Battleships. It's pure coincidence, I assure you |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:14:00 -
[118]
Heh, yeah But hey, a Phoon should get a lot of mileage out of the new drone system. Lots of fun you can have with the Phoon speed + layout + 5 x heavy drones with funky effects. I just started training Minmatar Battleships. It's pure coincidence, I assure you |
Alex Harumichi |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:38:00 -
[119]
Quite possibly... but DPS isn't everything. If you can't hit or can't target, it doesn't matter what your DPS is. If you're flying in a small combat group, sometimes the small surprises you can pull off are more important than raw damage output. And as a previous poster said, Geddon damage output is coming down with new patch. |
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Namtz'aar k'in |
Posted - 2005.11.04 18:38:00 -
[120]
Quite possibly... but DPS isn't everything. If you can't hit or can't target, it doesn't matter what your DPS is. If you're flying in a small combat group, sometimes the small surprises you can pull off are more important than raw damage output. And as a previous poster said, Geddon damage output is coming down with new patch. |
Originally by: Eyeshadow
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